I guess I mean that a person, on his or her own, cant do it without God working it out in that person. Even with the woman who lies in your embrace guard the words of your lips. BTW, off topic, yall, but would appreciate prayers for my 94-year-old FIL, who apparently has just days (or even hours) to live. And she is asking everyone to back off. ++++++++++++++. We only saw the one tomb. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. Bridget: Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. Its not some future harm. Thank you John for your honesty and insight into elder selection at HBC. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? Indeed. For those who regularly read this blog, question with critical thinking, demand proof for claims made, and hold those posting and commenting to the same standards being written about. He is not egotistical, and not, as is so falsely asserted, all about getting glory he is all about stepping through the barriers of time and space to reveal his gentle, sacrificial love for us. (which for me is the whole idea. Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? I can only guess, but I imagine that JMac and Hybels laid very clever traps, grooming and gradually leading people ever further into compromise and, eventually, outright sin. Or maybe its the era of the Judges, when every man did what was right in his own sight.. I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys! Max responding properly (thats all I will say). We see it mentioned on a few occasions in Scripture where elders were appointed in every city. For example, priests cannot conduct divine liturgy without laity present, the liturgy cannot proceed without the participation of the laity saying amen during various parts of the liturgy and prayers, and bishops cannot ordain priests with the amen of the laity in the congregation. These snakes congregate in the pit together! Were certainly no better in terms of our basic humanity, but we may have the benefit of a lot of hindsight. The bear was later seen using the gun to defend itself against local mice and rabbits., PASTOR has to Keep Up With The (Paige) Pattersons, you know. I have been following this blog for a while but have not commented until now. David, this is something that I think needs much closer examination. When I started diving into church history I was hoping and expecting to find an early church that looked like small home groups with decentralized leadership. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. Wow. Nice job. The official anniversary date was September 18, 2018. You have changed my perspective and I appreciate it. Whew! The word contains with it a reference to age. Or would they even care? Therefore, churches today need to endeavour to attain a point where they are able to have elders. Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! Making vague accusations like that is true slander. 4107 N Steele Blvd. Yet with their plausible and attractive arguments they deceive those who are too simple-hearted to see through them (Romans 16:17). No. My family get in my face from time to time over it. These arent hard hurdles for true elders to get throughbut if you ask a church elder to tell you about their elders and it comes back with a set of corporate jargon? You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. We are living through a decades-long trial of betrayal, and I have found myself weak of faith these last few years. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. Does that make you manly? Sad. HCA's highest purpose is to develop students who are grounded in God's Word. That movie became a kind of a shibboleth at our church when it came out. Thanks for the reply. .. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. Id call him a bottom feeder but I like lobster too much..So hes lower than that. TS00: I dont know, if one follows Twitter, there are several who have commented that attended church with JMac in his youth, and they have nothing positive to say about him or his character from way back. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. I really cant come up with a legitimate reason for why these Pastors and Elders are continuing to conceal the truth while realizing that doing so will result in decades of further abuse. They kept +/-$170,000 in credit card payment from campers in the general fund and showed it as revenue. Thats too deep to answer. ++++++++++++++++. Max: Whew! Dallas Jenkins stood with his arms crossed, facing the sunrise, a swath of orange clouds brushing the blue-gray mountains and yellow sky. It is also pure, and I would say faulty, assumption to state that the main issue is that the flock will quickly go astray. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. The proof of the Jesuss death and resurrection is what allows us to have faith in the things unseen. Regarding the tragic murder of that bear, I wouldnt be too rough on JMac perhaps he was using that as a witness to draw in rough boys from the streets of Chicago. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. He sat there for years and participated when people were being bullied and abused, being screamed at by their pastor and boss to the point of tears, watching hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent profligately. I understand your point and the historical information. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. What in the world is running through his mind that he wouldnt want the truth shouted from the rooftops to those whod been under Macs influence far and wide? CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. If she ends up with child porn on her computer which she can just barely turn on to view Facebook Im going to guess JMac or somebody planted it. Was it because he met the qualifications for eldership? If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? Dallas Jenkins (born July 25, 1975) is an American film and television director, writer and film producer. Remember, God is the master designer!!. Look what that got them. You have lived in a place too long where you have not had to embrace it. He added the promise of millions of dollars in renos and expansions, via the Closer Campaign, in order to sweeten the pot. Never! As the Lord continued to increase our congregation in depth and number, we outgrew the Rolling Meadows Campus. Why is any pastor allowed to act like this? That was all it was intended to be. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. So this ole guy is here until the Lord moves me along or my comments stop making sense (please tell me if they do). Sadly, many have not served well. Some things are great for a public airing, where its completely right. Is anonymous code for little people or pew peons? With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. In the history of the church, which is most seductive:money, sex, or power? No more circumcision. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. For me I choose to pray and let God work, he never ceases to amaze especially when he answers prayer. chosen by the hand of Jesus? And that tattoo you should seriously get it removed. This statement just doesnt sound much like what Jesus talked to the twelve about. He didnt. I dont think so. Only if this does not work are you to turn him away as a unbeliever. This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? With their leadership training, it appears that men like Hybels and MacDonald groom charismatic potential leaders in how to control and manipulate naive, trusting believers for their own personal, or the institutions, gain. The Elders and the search team felt unified in their decision and confident in Gods hand in providing the Bucknams to our church family. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. If the elders measured them selves against the qualities needed for the job and found themselves lacking, they should have withdrawn or the church members should have made the decision for them. Restore him to ministry? Its also possible it wasnt a continuous period of teaching, that there were times when they all had to go to work because they had families to support. However, he has never won . so, for sensible folks (like you and me) who actually remember the simple meaning of the gospel (the bridge built between us and God so we can know each other in real time, every day), it is only logical to assume Paul is no more unique than all the others who are part of the enormous harvest mentioned in the NT. True. No more indulgences. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. There is no believing without proof. . The history of church offices is a bit more complicated. Oh, they couldnt get away with that completely. Thats all it takes, my friend. Dallas Jenkins: I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. And it is bad form to hijack a thread to comment on a topic when asked not to. not greedy for money The Apostles warned us this would happen and to be on guard, but we havent done much about it. The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. Sadly, many of us have learned our lesson the hard way, but it is not he who established these institutions and herded his people into them. They deserve each other. The Church of the Living God needs to be on the alert for any ex-HBC executives/elders who served under MacDonald for more than 3 months. If people develop So theyll speak of doin church together, or kingdom life, or some such nonsense. * Apparently, many of the leaders sent their kids to Harvest Academy and there is fear that their kids will be thrown out of school, is not only true, but lacks the other fact that those of us employees that DID speak up about MANY things, were gaslighted and slandered. He moved to Plano. When youve been around as long as I have, you learn some things. Agreed. Max: America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them at allit was all a grand illusion. (Stacey Wescott/Chicago Tribune/TNS. The churches have become the world. Its ok to admit more of you need to to completely clear the air. Then, he apologized and said the would teach the high school Bible class. When will the madness end?! He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. Harvest Bible Chapel Jan 2010 - Dec 20178 years Greater Chicago Area Led media team, producing movies, short films, and large-scale videos. In all honesty, Dallas, since Mac and those around him, including you, took great delight in his being a very public ministry with great influence and far reach, this is a matter for public airing. The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. BTW, I am 99.99% sure that my 86-year-old mother can be trusted. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. Ken F (aka Tweed): I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. I hope you do for your own sake so you do not end up like the Pharisees that Jesus plainly stated were headed straight to an eternity in hell. Milky Way timelapse photobombed by the Aurora Borealis over Loch More in Scotland. again and again and again. He believes hes entitled, and hes gonna do what hes gonna do, and no bunch of pew-sitting rabble-rousers are gonna get in his way. They are set in place as the shepherds of Gods people, and thus are the care takers of the spiritual needs of the church. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. My Savior stands between The Bible(s) of the Christian church is a very big and complex book, much of it written by men who never met Jesus, nor met anyone who heard Jesus teach. Whats chilling is you can still see the cult hold harvest has on him and others as he desribes his felling in the beginning of the letter. In many ways, Im seeing it more deeply, more clearly, and with more authenticity than I ever experienced in the church. Gathering during this time was unique. I see several at work in this situation at all levels top to bottom of the organization. Youre right to say kind of. When my friends are all gone. the powerbrokers have everyone brainwashed that the insitution is too big to fail. I appreciated your comment, John. I must be having a rough night. It is somewhat inevitable, as their theology asserts that the lost are not so much lost as rejected and doomed by eternal decree from the get go. James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. Indeed. Some comments lead to some questions. Of course, Im a few miles from SEBTS and JD Greears church is on every street corner, along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. Dallas, I want to also say in all gentleness- I know youd like to be in control but you cant be. but i have gained a newfound joy in being a member of the human race. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. You wanted your letter to remain in the dark and hoped that no one would know of your hidden statement. Human nature, I guess. The fellowship network of about 120 churches, many of which still have Harvest in their name . Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. He claimed to be a guy who could show people the way. Most commenters here are members of the Body of Christ there is really only one Church whether they attend HBC or not, they are part of the fellowship there in spirit. 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